In this 34&5 Episode, CLACLS Fellow Cathy Cabrera Figueroa interviewed ⁠Pedro Javier Jaramillo Cruz⁠, professor at the ⁠University of Bogotá Jorge Tadeo Lozano⁠ in the Architecture and Habitat School. Pedro Jaramillo, a professor at the University of Bogota Jorge Tadeo Lozano.

Jaramillo discussed his journey from a severe car accident in 1997, which led him to focus on universal accessibility and inclusive design. His research, funded by the Inter-American Development Bank, contrasts how people with disabilities shape their lived spaces with how policymakers and planners design them. Jaramillo emphasized the need for user-centered design, cultural sensitivity, and shared responsibility in creating inclusive spaces. He highlighted the importance of flexible laws and the role of education and research in addressing invisible disabilities. Jaramillo aims to continue advocating for accessibility through teaching, policy influence, and collaborative efforts.

Since 1997, following a strong car accident that he suffered, his practice has been oriented towards the problematization of the relationship between physical space and people with disabilities. This is how the topics of his expertise focus on universal accessibility, inclusive design, and human safety.

He is currently a PhD candidate in Anthropology at the ⁠Universidad de los Andes in Bogotá⁠, Colombia, and a Fulbright Grantee recipient as a Visiting Research Scholar this Fall Term at The Graduate Center. His research work aims to know how people with disabilities produce the lived and perceived space through their representations and spatial practices, their material experience from daily life, and their self-representation in comparison with the space conceived and represented by so-called experts like policymakers, architects, and planners.

A slightly edited transcript can be found below:

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

Good day everyone. I am Cathy Cabrera Figueroa, a PhD candidate in history and a PhD Fellow at the Center for Latin American, Caribbean and Latino Studies here at the Graduate Center at the City University of New York. On today’s episode, we are honored to have Professor Pedro Javier Jaramillo Cruz share his incredible insights on disability and public spaces. Pedro Jaramillo Cruz is a professor at the University of Bogota Jorge dareo Lozano in the architecture and habitat school after a serious car accident that he suffered in 1997 his practice has been oriented towards the problematization of the relationship between physical space and people with disabilities. The topics of his expertise focus on universal accessibility, inclusive design and human safety. He is currently a PhD candidate in anthropology at the Universidad de los Andes in Bogota, Colombia, and a Fulbright grantee and the visited visiting research scholar this fall term at the Graduate Center at the City University of New York. His research work aims to know how people with disabilities produce the lived and perceived space through their representations and spatial practices, their material experience from daily life and their self representation in comparison with the space conceived and represented by so called experts, like policymakers, architects and planners. On December 5, Professor Jaramillo gave a thought provoking presentation at the Center for Latin American Caribbean and Latinos veterans title disability and public space and lived experience in Bogota Santo Domingo and New York City bienvenido, Professor Jaramillo, we are pleased to have you join us.

Pedro Jaramillo 

Thank you, Cathy. It’s my pleasure to be here at the center of Latin American, Caribbean and Latina studies here at the Graduate Center of CUNY.

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

Thank you. Let us start at almost the beginning. What made you interested in architecture?

Pedro Jaramillo 

Well, when I was a kid, my mom gave me a Lego set. It was a huge box for me. I remember it. It was number 400 oh two with 396 interlocking pieces. Oh, my god. That was my favorite toy from the time I was a teenager and I became interested in drawing. I think I did it well, because in my last year of high school, I got a double A plus in my final project in art, which was the design of health care facility, including the technical schematic plans for plumbing and electricity. So when it came time to decide what to study at the university. I choose, chose architecture. I applied and was accepted to the Universidad de los Andes in Bogota, Colombia,

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

awesome. I mean, I think Legos are like the beginning of every future planner architecture. Like they’re just such. I mean, they’re meant for like everyone. I mean, I love my my kids love Legos. They grew up loving like I love Legos. I mean, there’s a there’s so much that you can do with them and and it they can make your imagination absolutely just grow, because not only do they come in the sets, but then you can do what you want,

Pedro Jaramillo 

Right. I, I follow this, these instructions to do all the things that were able to to build there. But then I got bored, because I by memory. I I did it. So I started to make other things, to build other things, yeah.

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

And then in your profile, you noted that you suffered a severe car accident in 1997 is that how you became interested in universal accessibility and design, and what about that incident was transformative for

Pedro Jaramillo 

Yeah, after the car accident in which, fortunately, I was the only one injured, okay, I was the driver. There were no passengers and no pedestrians on the road, I realized that something was wrong with the built environment. After the surgeries, my complete rehabilitation took a year, and during that time, I struggled daily with many physical barriers in the city and the buildings. 70 days after the accident, I returned to my job as a private construction inspector on crutches, climbing up. And down a 12 story building. This experience made me empathetic to people with disabilities, and I started to learn on my own How was the way to give solutions, and I found that in Colombia, we have several design and constructions construction regulations about accessibility that until today are not fully fall out, so I became a kind of activist fighting for the compliance of the regulations in the name of the people.

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

Wow, that must have been very difficult, because it becomes eye opening right to see that the limitations of of spaces that you formally could navigate easily, right? And then all of a sudden, things that you took for granted just climbing down a flight of stairs, and now it becomes a completely different experience, experience exactly, and and that you feel like you’re limited, yeah, what you can do. And so it really does become a transformative experience to even if it’s a short term I don’t want to say inconvenience, because that sounds like blue, but even if it’s a short term disability, you’re right. You do become aware of how other people who might have a more long term disability have to navigate these spaces, and that’s really commendable, yeah,

Pedro Jaramillo 

right. It’s a matter of it’s of ability, but the building bank government is the one that that has to provide the conditions for everyone, not only for people with disabilities. Here in New York, for example, the stairs of the of the subway are are so high for me. I’m used to to climb stairs in a different pace. They are too high for for me. So, yeah, it’s matter also of culture, the culture of inclusion, of accessibility differs from one country to another. Yeah, maybe because of the people,

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

I can see that I do agree that our stairs are really difficult, especially when during certain times of the day when people are rushing up and down stairs, like there’s you see people who have limited mobility, how they struggle up the stairs, and because the stairs are sometimes too high, or the pace of the stairs, the pace of the stairs, the pace. That’s something I just started thinking about. So now you’re obtaining your PhD in anthropology. Why does the switch and then what do you feel you can do with anthropology and architecture? Yeah,

Pedro Jaramillo 

well, while my initial academic journey began in architecture, the path has taken an unexpected but fulfilling turn. My current pursuit of PhD in anthropology signifies a conscious decision to leverage the power of this crucial discipline to enhance my understanding of human behavior and its relationship with Bill built environments. So my interest in architecture stemmed from a fascination with the physical world and the creative potential of shaping space. However, it gradually recognized that. I gradually recognized that architecture, in its essence, it’s about much more than just bricks and mortar. It is about how human humans interact with their surroundings, how space has influenced social dynamics and how cultural values are reflected in the built environment. This realization sparked a deep curiosity about the social and cultural dimensions of architecture ultimately leading me towards anthropology. I think anthropology provides me with a powerful lens to analyze the complex interactions between people and the spaces they inhabit. Through novographic research, I can delve into the lived experience of individuals and communities, uncovering hidden meanings and narratives embedded within their built environments. This understanding allows me to move beyond designing structures and instead design spaces that are truly. Sponsorship to human needs, aspirations and cultural specificities, specifically. Sorry, And let me say that the combination of my architectural background with an anthropological perspective creates a unique and valuable skill set. I can critically analyze existing structures, identify their strengths and weaknesses, and propose interventions that are not not only esthetically pleasing, but also culturally sensitive and socially responsible. This. This This allows me to to bridge the gap between the technical aspects of design and the deeper social and cultural factors that influence how spaces are experienced and utilized.

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

that’s okay. We can say we are bilingual,  Did you feel it was hard to transition from architecture to anthropology?

Pedro Jaramillo 

No, I don’t think so. Maybe, maybe because I realized after my accident, and also from 1997 and Professor, University, Professor, so. So when you are professor, you are open minded. I think you have no you have to open your mind. I think it’s better you have to open your mind. And architecture takes the knowledge of other disciplines. That’s why it’s a little bit weird, because, for example, in Europe, when I did my master’s degree, the architecture program, and the master’s program was under the engineering faculty. Okay, so it was a little was a little bit be weird for me, because in Colombia, when I started architecture, architecture, it was related with the with the sign the Faculty of Design, and, for example, in other places in Colombia and around the world, the architecture programs are related to humanities. Oh, so we are. We are like, like a navigating in all aspects of humanity. So I think it I have no struggle about, about, about shifting or not shifting. Maybe matching, oh, that’s a nice maybe, maybe matching architecture and anthropology, because architecture is for people. Finally, it’s for people.

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

That’s a really good way to think about it, because that is what architecture is, right? You’re building for people, yeah,

Pedro Jaramillo 

absolutely, yeah, absolutely.

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

I’m going to ask you about the teaching. So you started teaching after your accident, yeah,

Pedro Jaramillo 

my accident was in March 1997 and you started lecturing in in September. Oh, wow. Right after, yeah, I finished my my work as a as a construction inspector, and then my boss, he was hired as the as the Dean of the Faculty. There at the University of ibagai, a town far to 200 kilometers from far from Bogota and and I went with him, and I started at the fall semester of 1997

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

Did you feel like after the accident, that that sort of influenced how you taught like that kind of mindset? Yeah,

Pedro Jaramillo 

yes, thinking about all kind of people to to make my students realize that that we we are dealing with, with difference, with the diversity, so so we don’t have to think about A standardized person, sometimes without, the gender, like like an abstract person, a generic person, and that that that it’s what I started to give to my students to get known about that, and also my relations with my students, because they are different. Sometimes the educational system also works within a standard, and you have a very smart students other that have struggles how to learn, how to draw, etc, but, but also. To you have to cope and to to work with each student by the place that they they have. It’s not easy but, but I love, I love. I feel that being a teacher, it’s a it’s like a eternal fountain of youth, because you are with youngsters.

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

I feel the same way, and I can tell you love it, because I can tell from the smile on your face that you love teaching. So this fall, you were a Fulbright recipient and a visiting research scholar at the Graduate Center here at CUNY. What was it like receiving a Fulbright to study something I imagine you were passionate about?

Pedro Jaramillo 

Yeah, yeah, receiving the Fulbright visitor, researcher, doctoral student grant was more than just an academic honor. It was the validation of a lifelong passion and a profound recognition of the needs of a marginalized community. For me, it wasn’t just about pursuing a research project, but about taking concrete steps towards more in class, a future for people with disabilities in Colombia, my passion for disability inclusion stems from a deeply personal experience witnessing the challenges faced by individuals with disabilities first hand, ignited a fire with within me to work towards creating a world where everyone has equal opportunities and access to resources. This patient translates into my academic and research pursuits, leading me to delve deeper into the complexities of disability inclusion in Colombia.

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

How did you find out? Like, I know, like, when I found out I got into the graduate program, I had like, elation, but a kind of a little bit of fear. Like, what was the feeling like for you?

Pedro Jaramillo 

Yeah, yeah, it’s kind of fear, because it’s very big responsibility that you are carrying. Yeah, it’s a very big one. It. It’s not a matter of morals or No, no, no, no. I think it’s, it’s a commitment with my own life and how, what do I can do for people? Absolutely, so I think by means of education, you can change the world, ideal, but, but nowadays I see my my students working in design studios or in the government and and I think they remember our classes and and then they’re applying what they learned with me. I hope so.

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

I think they absolutely do, because I can tell from the passion that you have that stays with students. Because I know my the professors I had who were passionate there, I still remember everything that they say, yeah,

Pedro Jaramillo 

let me say something. The Fulbright grant wasn’t just a financial award. It was or it is, what a catalyst, catalyst for change. It provides me with the resources and opportunity to further my research, collaborate with living, leading experts in the field. That’s why I’m here in New York, and gain valuable, valuable international exposure. This grant allows me not to only refine my research methodology, but also develop a deeper understanding of the global context surrounding disability rights.

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

So it’s very it was very important to you. Your presentation on disability and public space highlighted the disconnect between how people with disabilities produce their lived spaces through their spatial practices and everyday experiences with which often contrasts with how policymakers, architects and planners create spaces. Can you explain that further?

Pedro Jaramillo 

Oh, wow, yeah, yeah, I have a long explanation about it. Yeah, right. And my presentation aimed to shed light on the significant disconnect between how people with disabilities experience and shape their lived spaces through everyday practices, and how spaces are typically designed and planned by policy makers, architects and. Urban planners, this disconnect manifests in several key ways. One, prioritizing function over lived experience. Traditional design approaches often prioritize functionality and accessibility standards over the diverse enhanced ways. People with disabilities interact with and navigate their surroundings. This leads to spaces that may technically comply with the regulations but fail to address the specific needs and preferences of individuals and communities. Second, it’s like my statement, I think, Okay. Second, it’s the overlooking the agency of disabled people. People with disabilities are often viewed as passive recipients of design, rather than active participants in shaping their environments. This overlooks the creativity, resourcefulness and agency they demonstrate in adapting spaces to their individual needs and creating meaningful experiences within them. My third point it’s ignoring cultural contexts and diversity design often operates under a one size fits all approach, neglecting the significant cultural, social and economic contexts that shape how people experience disabilities and utilize space. This leads to solutions that fail to resonate with the diverse needs and preferences of individuals from different backgrounds. I have four five. I don’t know if you want to hear the fourth and fifth. It’s okay.

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

We will hopefully have the presentation up on YouTube. Those are probably the key.

Pedro Jaramillo 

Yeah, my 40, it’s the lack of user centered design. And my 50s, there’s a limited representation in planning and policy making, fourth and fifth point

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

along those lines, can you describe your work on accessibility in Bogota and Santo Domingo? And why did you choose? I mean, obviously Bogota, but why those two places? Why contrast those two places? Yeah, right.

Pedro Jaramillo 

Because the research work that that I not presented but, but I mentioned in in my lecture, that work was funded by the Inter American Development Development Bank. So at first I proposed to do it in Bogota, because of my my PhD research, and because the headquarters of the of the Inter American Development Bank are in in in Santo Domingo publico Dominicana, they just say, hey, why don’t you come here with your team, and then let’s, let’s work here. Okay, so that’s why with, with a very good friend of mine, he’s also architect. We met at the Universidad de los Andes. His name is Johnny tascon. He we make our field work team, and we went to Bogota, to Santo Domingo, because the work is to we transform a methodology that the bank has for for urban transportation. So we took that methodology and put it into the pedestrian network to assess the pedestrian network. So it was the two cases were to validate the transformation of that methodology that we did and and it’s useful for my for my work, because we work with with four Types of of impairments, people, blind people, people with physical, hearing and cognitive disabilities, okay, so, so that’s, that’s why it’s important to to know how they how they navigate the space, how do they feel? How do they do it? To give it. Tools to planners, designers, to realize and to design that the best way, by means of the experience of that people, yeah,

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

I have friends from Bogota, and they tell me that Bogota is very pedestrian friendly, or that there, there’s a lot of infrastructure for commuting and so, and then I have friends from Santo Domingo who tell me it’s very car driven and so like, I’m wondering if that also helped in looking at the differences between the Two and how people were able to navigate. Yes,

Pedro Jaramillo 

right? It’s, it’s the attitude, I think, the success or or not success, about the walkability in a city, not only has to be to do with with the activism of people with disabilities or the communities, but also the attitude of the of the authorities to make real the laws that are laws are are written, yes, are active, but they do not control or make the law work. So I think the biggest barrier that, that, I think all people, that we people have, is, is the attitudinal barrier. How do you it’s kind of if you are empathetic or not, and to know that the rules are not the rules, the rules are for conviviality in between people.

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

I think we’re sort of seeing that in New York now with congestion pricing, you know, limiting the amount of cars that are coming into New York to make mass transit more appeal able. That a word to people so that there’s less congestion and more people are using mass transit? And so you feel the tension between people who want to drive their cars versus people who want more and better mass transit. And you do feel that tension. And so like I do see what you’re saying about like, there has to be authority saying this is what has to be, and then the enforceability of the laws to make it happen, right,

Pedro Jaramillo 

and also the transformability of law, also Because of the time it not, and I have experienced here by means of the seasons, the law has to be flexible. Yeah, summertime, it’s one thing. Winter time, it’s one thing, it’s other thing. So, so, so, for example, I live in the tropics, so we have, like a plane, temperature, rains, not seasons, blah, blah, blah, yeah, but, but here, seasons have to do a lot with the behavior of people and the laws, I think the laws have to to be flexible. You have to

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

take into account the variations and what. Yeah. What happens when there’s flooding, what happens when there’s snow, what happens when it’s too hot, all these things, yeah. I agree with you, yeah. At the presentation, one of the comments that was brought up was that people with disabilities are the ones that drive the conversations about making spaces accessible, and so we just were kind of talking about that right now. Do you see a time or place where they do not have to be the drivers of reform? No,

Pedro Jaramillo 

it’s true that people with disabilities have been the driving force behind making spaces accessible, they have tirelessly advocated for change, challenge the discriminatory practices, and pushed for inclusive design, the solutions. While their leadership and advocacy have been crucial to achieving progress, we should try strive for a future where they are not solely responsible for driving reform. Here’s why shared responsibility creating inclusive spaces is not just a responsibility for people with disabilities. It’s a responsibility for everyone, everyone benefits from inclusive design, from promoting social cohesion to fostering a more diverse and vibrant society. Shifting power dynamics when people with disabilities are solely responsible for driving reform, it. Forces the power in balance and perpetrates the notion that they are the problem that needs to be fixed. We need to shift the focus towards creating more a more inclusive society where everyone has a role to play in breaking down barriers. Other thing, reducing reducing burden, placing the entire burden of advocacy of on people with disabilities can be emotionally draining and unsustainable. By encouraging broader participation in disability rights and inclusion efforts, we can share the responsibility and create a more supportive and collaborative environment for everyone. Expanding the conversation when only people with disabilities are driving the conversation about accessibility, it can lead to a narrow perspective by involving a wider range of stakeholders, including architects, policymakers and community members, we can generate more comprehensive and creative solutions that address the diverse needs and perspectives for all. So why people with disabilities have been essential to the progress made in accessibility. We must, we must strive for a future where they are not solely responsible for driving reform. Here are some ways we can work towards this goal, educate, educating and raising awareness, promoting greater greater understanding of disability and accessibility issues among the general public policy makers and professionals in various fields, empowering communities, supporting and equipping communities with the tools and resources needed to advocate for their own needs and hold decision makers accountable, integrating accessibility into design standards, integrating accessibility considerations into all stages of the design process, from initial planning to construction and Maintenance, because, yeah, sometimes it’s focused only in design process. And we have several beauty things in the public space, but that not well maintained, and then you find cracks, you find holes. So it has all the steps have to be considered, yeah, encouraging innovation, supporting research and development of new technologies and design solutions that promote accessibility and inclusion. That’s why it’s that’s my passion. And also building partner partnerships, building strong collaborations between people with disabilities, advocacy groups, groups, policy makers and professionals to create a unified front for change. I think by working together, we can create a future where everyone feels empowered to contribute to building a more inclusive and accessible world in this future, people with disabilities will not need to be this old drivers of reform. They will be respected partners in a collaborative effort to create a society where everyone can thrive. That’s

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

nice. I you kind of answered my next question, but I’ll ask it anyway. You and I had a very brief conversation about what is sometimes referred to as invisible disabilities, and so does or can inclusive design and universal accessibility accommodate the needs of all the types of disabilities?

Pedro Jaramillo 

Okay, it’s a difficult question, because to do so, we need a lot of research, because the universal design principles are from the 1970s a lot of people have worked about about them. Also the universal design principles came from from the Center for Universal Access at the North Carolina State University, a bunch of professors were working on that in not only architects, but all kind of designers. And then in, in the UK, they call it, they call it the inclusive design, the same. As a universal design, but, yeah, you have to to put it in today, all these principles. So I think by research, because invisible, invisible disabilities, first, are difficult to detect. So for me, and for I think for everyone, it’s easy to identify people with physical disability or a blind person walking in the street, but people with that are deaf or, for example, they have ADHD or other kind of conditions are not are not visible, so we need to make them the visible. And I think by research and education, it’s the way to enhance the regulations and to make people know that the there are other kinds of conditions of people that that need to be taken into account. I agree. So we need a lot of researchers, sensitive and sensible researchers, to do so in all fields of knowledge, in all, in all,

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

yeah, no, it’s research and education. Yeah, that’s what we need. So I know you’re never supposed to ask a PhD this, but you’re only supposed to give them coffee and snacks, right? Okay, but what is next? Where do you hope your research takes you?

Pedro Jaramillo 

It’s my whole life. I need, like, 1000 years to do what I want, because, because it’s, yeah, it’s my passion and, and, well, first I have to finish my PhD.

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

I want to ask you when that’s going to happen.

Pedro Jaramillo 

Yeah, I have to write down and to do my my defense of my thesis, but, but what’s calling? Yeah, I think it’s, I love to study. So maybe postdoc one, postdoc to postdoc three. Teaching, yeah, teaching, teaching, teaching, it’s my life and and I think working with with governments, okay, but, but not, not as a consultant. I think it’s better to be like, how do you say it’s, yeah, like the person that the sensibilities sizes other people. I think sensibility is, is, it’s a clue when you when, when you are aware about the condition of other persons, and you don’t have an accident like me. So, so, so, so I think it would be a nice work, yeah, like, like, a coach in accessibility inclusion, like coaching people, maybe,

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

what’s it called, an expert in…

Pedro Jaramillo 

Yeah, right, yeah. Expert in accessibility, yeah. And you, say that we’re expert, but by experience. It’s by experience, not expert by knowing, yeah, it’s by experience to share my experience with others. I think it’s the clue.

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

So before we wrap up, I’m going to ask you a question. I think how you got involved with clackos was interesting, almost serendipitous. I got bits and pieces. So how did you get involved with doing this presentation with clackos?

Pedro Jaramillo 

Well, when I arrived here and I present myself at the anthropology program here at the Graduate Center. Jeff mascotsky, who is the director of the PhD in anthropology, told me about calacs calculus. So I searched and I found. On several events you have, okay, talks, meetings, cool activities. So I booked for for for the activities, and then I met Fatima. Okay, Fatima Velez,

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

our wonderful event coordinator.

Pedro Jaramillo 

Yeah, she’s awesome. And it’s kind of serendipity, because she’s, she’s the daughter of one renowned architect, Colombian architect that works with bamboo. Okay, he’s awesome. So it’s like, Well, you’re the daughter of Simon bellez. But then then I start stalked her bio, and I realized she’s a very smart and warm person. And then we talk with, with the director of clacus, John, with John, John Gutierrez, yes. And we chatted and and I and he said, Hey, why don’t you we do something with you here. Okay, and then I asked Fatima, and it came rid of my presentation. I very fortunate and and it’s an honor for me to to to being part of these fall semester lectures and events made by CLACLS,

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

thank you. Let me just make sure I have nothing else you have, any thing you would like to add for our audience, or anything you want to say before we finish up.

Pedro Jaramillo 

Well, sometimes we think love is abstract word that, okay, yeah. And then people think that, or sometimes get it’s ashamed, because using that word, but, but it’s a matter of love, education. It’s a matter of love, for example, working for others. It’s a matter of love. It’s real. No, it’s not only hearts and cases and taking. No, it’s a matter of of humanity. So, so, yeah, that’s love’s matter.

Cathy Cabrera Figueroa 

Yeah, thank you so Gracias, Professor Jaramillo, for being here with me today and for your valuable work. Thank you listeners for tuning in to 34th&5th of classes podcast with me, Cathy Cabrera Figueroa and our guest Professor Pedro. Javier Jaramillo, I hope you found this topic as valuable as I did. Please subscribe to our mailing list by going on our website and join us in person or online for our events. Also follow us on social media clacls_gc to see what we are up to and who our next guest will be. Adios from “Treinta y Cuatro y Quinta” 34th & 5th. Hasta la proxima!